(Dr. Mohammed) Now I call upon Dr. William Campbell to present his response to Dr. Zakir Naik.
(Dr. William Campbell) Well, Dr. Naik has brought up some real problems. I do not agree with his answer about the Qur’an, in times of the alaqa and mudga – I still think it is a big problem. But that is his opinion and my opinion. So everybody will have to go home and think about it themselves. He spoke about…‘He has not met any person that took the poison test.’ I cannot present the person, because he has already gone to be with the Lord. But I have friend Harry Rancliff, and he lived in a town in the South of Morocco – and one of his people who he thought was a friend, invited him over for a lunch…For a dinner, and he invited the wife and son also. So when Harry agreed to go, somebody came and knocked on the door and said…‘The man is gonna poison you.’ So they went – Harry took this very verse which you read, and he decided that he should go, because he had said he would. So he went, he waited, hoping to find a time when the man brought in the ‘Kuskus’, he could turn away… the man would go out, and he could turn the ‘Kuskus’ around. But there was no such time – So he dug in, and he ate. His wife was too…she was not able to eat very much – and they had fed their son before they went. But Harry ate, and that night Harry got pains in his stomach, and he had some blood – but he lived. And so two days later he went, knocked on the door – The man came, and opened the door, and his face went absolutely white – And Harry thanked him for the meal. I thought, so I give you this one example any way. Now you have said about – Jesus was only sent to the Jews….‘Only go to the Jews and not to the Gentiles. Well in the Qur’an itself, it talks about Mary – And then she says…‘I do not know any man,’ in Surah No.19: 21. And then it says that…‘Jesus is to be a sign unto men, and a mercy from us.’
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In Mathew 4:9…‘A lady came and anointed Jesus’ feet. He said…‘Whenever this…wherever this Gospel is preached in the whole world – what this woman has done will be told.’ And in Mathew 28, when Jesus is about to ascend into heaven, he says… ‘Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.’ But this is not a contradiction. He did say to his disciples…‘Go only to the Jews’ because the Jews were given a certain chance. There is a story in the Bible – should not use the word ‘story’ I suppose – It were history – Where Jesus came to a fig tree. And the fig tree had brought no fruit for 3 years – And so then…it…the…said…‘Shall I tear it down?’ And then Jesus’ answer was…‘No – Leave it one more year, and it will fertilize, and see if it brings any fruit.’ This was all a parable about Israel – He had preached to them 3 years and he would preach an another half. But then there are other parables and he told, where he said…‘All right – It will be taken away from you…the blessing, and given to the Gentiles.’
(Pause and Clapping)
Dr. Naik has talked about ‘the day’ and ‘the periods.’ ‘The day’ in the Bible also can have the time of ‘a long period’ – Doesn’t have to be 24 hours, as Dr. Bucaille wanted to insist in his book. And I believe that it was long periods of time. And there are also these problems that he has said – and I do not deny them, and I do not have good answers for them.
But I will tell about….He spoke about the two kinds of salt – The sweet water and the salt water – I do not agree with his explanation. The Qur’an says as…‘The God has let free the two barriers…two bodies of flowing water, meeting together – Between them is a barrier which they do not transgress. Then which of the favours of thy Lord will you deny.’ The word used here for ‘barrier’ is ‘barzak’…means ‘interval’, or ‘gap’ or ‘break’ or ‘bar’ or ‘obstruction’ or ‘isthmus’. The same information is given in Al-Furqan 25:53…‘It is He who has let free the two bodies of flowing water, one palatable and sweet, and the other salty and bitter. And He made between them a barrier, and a partition that it is forbidden to pass.’ The phrase…‘A partition that it is forbidden to pass’, represents two words from the same root. This is done in Arabic to stress or accept whatever is being discussed. The word ‘hijr’ means ‘forbidden’, ‘interdicted’, ‘prohibited.’ – All very strong words. And the second word, which is the last participle of the verb, has the same meanings. Therefore very literally, one might translate this as…‘He, God made between them a bar, and a forbidden…forbidding.’ Dr. Bucaille discusses this briefly and then he says – though he admits at the end…Well it mixes far out to see. A scientist friend commenting on this said…‘It is simply that the salt and fresh water, are physically separated. The effluent from the river displacing the seawater – But there is no barrier. Thermodynamically the mixing is a spontaneous, immediate process, highly favored by entropy. The only barrier is canonic. It takes a long time for that much stuff to mix. I myself have had a tiny example of this – I had a friend in Tunisia and he used to hunt for Octopus. So I went there once, and I jumped out of the boat and was swimming around, and it was right at the where, a small creek came in – and the top water was cold and the bottom water was hot. I thought…How can this be – the top is cold and the bottom is hot? Then I realized, the cold water was coming out of the river, and the salt water is heavy. So the salt water was at the bottom and the cold light water was at the top – So there is…but there is no barrier ?
Dr. Naik spoke about languages – and off course I am not able to answer about the languages in India. Well I could not answer about the Indian languages in America either – So it is no difference between India and America. However, the place that he talks about in the Bible…the disciples were given languages, as a miracle. But they were the many languages that the people who were there knew – They were not weak languages that were unknown. If somebody came from Spain – an Apostle spoke to that person in his language from Spain. If another person came from Turkey, a different apostle spoke to the other person in his language, from Turkey. I am going to go to something that I had prepared to give, and talk about ‘Witnesses.’ In Deuteronomy, God told Moses…‘The way to know true Prophet was – Did his prophecy come true?’ – Elijah is an example. Elias in the Qur’an…He went to the king, and he told him…‘It is not going to rain till I say so.’ And so for 6 months and no rain, a year and no rain. Once in Tunisia there was a whole year and no rain. Then 2 years there was no rain, then 3 years, then 3 and a half years. And then Elaijah went to the king and he said…‘We gonna have a contest.’ – And they went up on Mount Carmel and they had this contest – And the king lost. And in the Qur’an, it says that…‘Elias had…. waged a wonderful victory. But then Elias fell down on his knees – Elaijah and he prayed for rain and the rain came. Well, Elaijah is the first witness. When he said…‘It is not going to rain till I say so’- he was the first witness. When God made the rain come, when Elaijah fell down on his knees, God Himself was the second witness. Another example is Isaiah, 750 B.C. – The Jews were sent into exile. He prophesied they will be sent to exile, and then Cyrus would bring them back. Cyrus…who is Cyrus? 250 years later, Cyrus the Persian pagan king, sent the Jews back to Israel… back to Palestine – And there is a Cyrus cylinder in London, that talks about it. So you can ask a question…‘Did Jesus fulfill prophecies? …Did Jesus do miracles? …Did Jesus make prophecies?
We are going to make a mathematical study of Prophesies – It is called the theory of probabilities. And we will estimate the possibility that these prophecies could be fulfilled by chance. An example of this is – Supposing Dr. Naik has ten shirts, and I know he has a red shirt. And I say…‘Tomorrow he is going to wear the red shirt.’ And tomorrow he does… So then I say… ‘I am a Prophet.’ All of my friends is gonna say…‘No, no, that just happened by chance.’ Well then, supposing Dr. Samuel Nauman – he has two pairs of shoes and a pair of sandals. So then the next day, I prophesize what shirt Dr. Naik is going to wear, and I prophesize that Dr. Samuel Nauman is going to wear his sandals, and Dr. Sabeel Ahmed, he has 5 hats, and I say his going to wear his turban. Well what are the chances that I could have all of these rights, by chance? – Oh! Gone away. Anyway… all right – You multiply 1 over 10, by 1 over 5, by 1over 3, and you get 1 over a hundred and fifty – And that is my chance of getting it by luck. Is it possible to have the slide projected down please? I mean… the screen down. Well, the time is going, and we are going to look at 10 prophecies – And then one, which we will not count, because of the we want to prove. The first one is Prophesies in Jeremiah…Prophesy in Jeremiah 600 BC – that the Messiah must be from the prosterity of David. ‘The days are coming…declares the Lord – when I will raise up to David a righteous friend – a king who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. He will be called the Lord Yahowah, or righteousness. And the fulfillment was in the 6th month – The angel Gabriel was sent from God, to Mary. The Angel said to her: Do not be afraid Mary – Behold you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son. He will be called Jesus – He will be great and will be called the son of the Most High. And the Lord God, will give to him the throne of his father David, and in his kingdom there will be no end.’ And the angel said to her…‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High, will overshadow you – Therefore the child to be born will be called, holy. Well, when David was first…. he was just from a small family. But after be became king, and his family was known, then everybody would remember that there was a fifth cousin of the king. So I am going to assume that 1 in 200 Jewish people, belonged to the family of David.
The second prophecy is – everlasting ruler to be born in Bethlehem. Micah, 750 B.C…‘But you O Bethlehem, Ephrathah who are little to be among the clans of Judah – from you shall come forth for me, one who is to be ruler in Israel – whose origin is from of old from ancient days.’ And the fulfillment – Though Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, because of an order from Ceaser Agustus, Joseph had to take Mary to Bethlehem, his native town. In the fulfillment it says…‘And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem – because he was of the house and lineage of David. And while there, she gave birth to her first born son. Well what is the chance of being born in Bethlehem? There is about 2 billion people were born in the world, from Micah until now, and 7000 live in Bethlehem. So one man, out of every 280 thousand, men was born in Bethlehem. The 3rd prophecy – A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah. This was done by Malachi, in Chapter No. 3 : 1, in 400 B.C…‘Behold I send my messenger, to prepare the way before me – and the lord whom you seek, will suddenly – come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant is in whom you delight – Behold he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.’ The fulfillment – The next day – John the Baptist…Yahya ibn Zakariya saw Jesus coming toward him and said…‘Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!’ This is he of whom I said…‘After me comes a man who ranks before me – for he was before me.’ And to this the Qur’an agrees also in the story of, The Family of Imran, 3 : 39 – 45, when it says…‘Yahya is to come ‘witnessing the truth of a word from God’ whose name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.’ Well how many leaders had a forerunner? – Well it is hard to say. I put down 1 man in a 1000 was a leader, who had a forerunner.
The fourth prophesy…The Messiah will do many signs and miracles. In Isaiah, 750 we read…‘Say to those with fearful hearts – Be strong and do not fear – Your God will come and he will save you. Then will the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf be unstopped, then will the lame leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb, shout for joy. The fulfillment: The Gospel states, as does the Qur’an, that Jesus did many miracles. The Bible speaks of only 4 Prophets who did many miracles – Moses, Elaijah Elaisha and Jesus. Jesus is the only one that did all four types of miracles mentioned in the prophecy – and he sometimes healed all who came to him. Well since many Muslims believe that there were 1,24,000 Prophets, we will use that number and say that Jesus was the one man, in a 1,24,000. The fifth Prophesy: Inspite of these signs, his brothers were against him. In the song of David, a 1000 B.C, he says… “I have become a stranger to my brother, an alien to my mother’s sons.” And in John he gives the fulfillment…‘So his brothers said to him leave here and go to Judea for even his brothers did not believe in him.’ A question might be – One ruler in how many will have find his family against him? Well, many kings were overthrown by their own relatives – Therefore we will say, 1 in 5, or 2 times 10 to the first power. And the 6th Prophecy: It is given by Zakaria in 520 B.C…’Rejoice straightly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold your king come into you: he is just and having salvation – lowly and riding upon an ass.’ The fulfillment…‘The next day, the great crowd took some palm branches and went out to meet him shouting, Hosanna. ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the king of Israel! And Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it. Well obviously, Jesus chose to sit upon the donkey – that is no miracle – It is nothing unusual. But the crowd was there and the crowd came and praised him and said… ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ Well, how many rulers entered Jerusalem…how many rulers entered Jerusalem on a donkey? Nowadays he come on a Mercedes. Well one ruler… I said one ruler in a hundred. The Seventh prophecy: Jesus foretells the destruction of the temple – He himself gave the prophecy – So Jesus said this sometime in 30 A.D. And as Jesus was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said him… ‘Teacher, behold what wonderful stones, and what wonderful buildings.’ And Jesus said to him… ‘Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, which will not be thrown down.’ In the fulfillment: About 40 years later in 70 A.D, the Roman General Titus, captured Jerusalem after a long siege. Titus had intended to spare the temple, but the Jews set it on fire. Well, for the Jews to revolt and then be crushed would be common – So I said 1 chance in 5. For the eight prophecies – The Messiah will be crucified. In Psalms, David wrote in 1000 B.C…‘A band of evil men has – encircled me – They have pierced my hand and my feet.’ Well, Jesus…. David did not die this way. He died in his bed – His feet and hands were not pierced. Luke gives us the fulfillment…‘When they came to the place called ‘The skull’, there they crucified Jesus along with the criminals – One on his right, the other on his left.’ Our question is – One man in how many, has been crucified? Well I said, one man in 10,000. The prophecy 9 – They will divide his garments, and cast lot for his robe. Again this is David speaking…‘They divided my garments among them, and cast lots for my clothing.’ Well, John gives us the fulfillment in Chapter 19…‘When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the under garment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece, from top to bottom. Let us not tear it they said – Let us decide by lot who will get it. Well, how many criminals would have a seamless garment? Well you can make your own decision – But I said one in a 100.
(Pause and Clapping)
The 10th prophecy – ‘Though innocent, he would be counted with the wicked and with the rich, in his death. Isaiah said in 750 B.C…‘He was assigned a grave, with the wicked and with the rich in his death. Though he had done no violence nor was any deceit in his month, he was numbered with the transgressors.’ Mathew gives the fulfillment…‘They crucified two robbers with him. As evening approached there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph – a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body. Joseph wrapped it in a clean linen cloth and placed it in his own tomb.’ Well, how many executed criminals were innocent? Well I said – One man in 10. And how many innocent men or how many criminals were buried with the rich? I said – One man in a hundred. That gives 1 in a thousand. Finally the prophecy… After dying, he will rise from the dead. In Isaiah again, it says…‘For he was cut off from the land of the living. He died, and though the Lord makes his life guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days. So there is a prophecy, that he will be come back to life. Luke tells us Jesus himself stood among them and said to them…‘Peace be with you.’ And then Paul gives us a summary in 1st Corin thains 15, that Jesus appeared to Peter and then to the twelve. After that he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living – then to James… Jesus’ half brother, then to all the apostles. Well that is not something you can give a value to. So now we are going to look at the calculation. One man in how many men the world over, will fulfill all ten prophecies? This question can be answered by multiplying all of our estimates. I do not have time to read them but the answer is one chance in 2 times. 2.78 times 10, to the 28. 28 zeros. Let us simplify and reduce the number, by calling it 1 times 10 to the 28. The best information available in the case of number of men who ever lived to be – about 88 billion. We call that, 1 times 10 to the eleven. By dividing these two numbers, we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time, and fulfilled all 10 prophesies by luck is 1 in 10 to the 17. That is written out this way, with seventeen zeroes.’ Well let us try and imagine – this. If you took the state of Texas and you covered it with dollar coins, one meter deep, 3 feet deep, several dollars, and then one coin was marked electrically. And then I say there, go walk out into the state of Texas and pick the right coin. That is your chance of picking the right coin by chance. In other words it is no chance.
I am having trouble… Just a minute. There are many more prophecies – These all show, the Prophet David or Isaiah is the first witness – God causing fulfillment, is the second witness. And God caused the disciples of Jesus to write it down – These are all proofs that the Bible is true and from Yehowah Elohim. The Gospel says that…‘Jesus came from God, and paid the penalty for our sins’ – This is good news. The Qur’an has hard news – Surah Nahl 16:61 says…‘If Allah were to punish men for their wrongdoing, He will not leave on earth, a single living creature.’ The problem is that the Qur’an states very clearly that even those who have done their best are given only a – ‘may be.’ In the Surah of the Narration, Al-Qasas it says… ‘Perhaps for him who shall repent, and believe and do right, perhaps ‘asahan’… he may be one of the successful.’ In ‘The Forbidding’…Al-Tahrim it says…‘O you who believe, repent toward Allah with a sincere repentance – It maybe that your Lord would get back from you, your evil deeds.’ In the Surah of ‘Repentance’ – ‘Al Tauba’, it says…‘Those only shall worship in the mosques of Allah, who believe in Allah and the last day, and observe proper worship, and give alms and fear none except Allah, and it might be that these are the rightly guided.’ In the end it is very lonely – If a person does not believe, then he is sure to go to hell. But if he does believe, on the day of judgement he stands there all by himself in front of Allah. There is no intercessor or friend, and he can only hope that, may be, perhaps, he might be, among the blessed. This is hard news – where in this dictionary if translates, ‘as asahan’, ‘it might be’, ‘it could be’, ‘that, possibly’, ‘may be’, ‘perhaps.’ In the Oxford dictionary, English to Arabic, ‘perhaps’ is translated as ‘asahan’ – this may be true but it is hard. On the other hand the Gospel has good news – Jesus said…‘I did not come to be served, but to serve – to give my life a ransom for many. Another Verse from Paul the apostle says…‘If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved straight out’ – This is wonderful good news. You read with me these fulfilled prophecies as proofs. There were 500 people who saw Christ, after he rose from the dead. There are many archeological finds, confirming the Bible. I urge you get a copy of the Bible… of the Gospel – Read it. You will find good news for your soul. May God bless you all – Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) I now call upon Dr. Zakir Naik to present his response to Dr. William Campbell.
(Dr. Zakir) …(Arabic)… Respected Dr. William Campbell, the other people on the dais, my respected elders and my dear brothers and sisters, I welcome all of you once again with the Islamic greetings… As Salaam Wa Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu. May peace mercy and blessings of Almighty God be on all of you. Dr. William Campbell only touched on 2, out of the twenty-two points I made – only two.
The first point he raised was he thinks that ‘the days’ mentioned in the Bible – he refers to as long periods. I already gave the reply in my talk, that if you consider ‘days’ to be ‘long periods’, like the Qur’an, you can only solve two problems – The ‘six-day creation problem, and 1st day light came, and 3rd day earth.’ The remaining four problems, yet is there. So Dr. William Campbell chose to say… ‘Days are long period.’ And out of 6, he solved 2 scientific errors – the remaining four… ‘Of the creation of the universe he does agree it -That is good . And he says it is difficult to answer. The second point he touched on, was regarding the scientific test of Mark Chapter No 16, Verse No 17 & 18, and he said… ‘One of his friend by the name of Harry, whatever the name was, in Morocco… in Morocco – he ate ‘khuskhus.’ The Bible says, the King James Version, as well as the New International Version which Dr. William Campbell refers to ‘drink deadly poison’… not eat – ‘drink.’
Yet, yet, I do not mind – Even if a person eats deadly poison also, no problem. But imagine one man in Morocco I am told there are 2 billion Christians in the world – No one can come forward, one out of the 2 billion? And I thought Dr. William Campbell was a true Christian believer, and I asked him to pass the test not his friend, who already died.
And he said that… ‘Blood came out of the mouth.’ Dr. William Campbell, and even I know very well, being medical doctors, that having poison – blood comes out, and we cure many people of poison – So what is so great test is, that you should come forward, and do all these things, and yet you should be able to speak foreign tongues. And Dr. William Campbell said that, at that time if you read Gospel of Mark, Chapter 16, those people there, they spoke the languages people knew, and foreign tongues. Dr William Campbell does not know there are Indians out here – Surely many may know Gujrathi, Marathi – even I know. If I ask you… ‘Shu Cheh? Suppose if I ask you… if I ask you in a particular language… ‘Neer kud’. ‘Neer Kud’… Tamil – No reply. Foreign tongues… ‘Neer Kud’…. Anyone knows Tamil or Malalayam?
(Dr. Zakir) Yes, very good! Are you a Christian believer? … No I am asking that person there you are a Muslim? Any way fine, this was supposed to be a test passed by Christian believers. There are many people who know foreign languages out here. Only thing you had to do was speak to them like…‘What is your name? … How are you? For example, ‘Kaifa haaluka’, in Arabic, which you know – New languages which you did not know – And you have proved my point. And yet I have not come across a single Christian, who has passed this test in front of me – Not a single, out of the thousands I have met personally – And now it can be 1001, after meeting Dr. William Campbell – Only touched two points. Dr William Campbell did not reply to my twenty points, and he started speaking about ‘Prophecy.’ What has ‘Prophecy’ to do with science in the Bible? If ‘Prophecy’ is the test… if ‘Prophecy’, is the test, then Nosterdamas’ book, should be the best book. Nostradamas’ book should be the best book, to be called…‘the word of God’ – It is right. He spoke about the ‘Theory of probability.’ For the definition of ‘Theory of probability’ – how you can analyze with the Qur’an with scientific facts, refer to my video cassette, ‘Is the Qur’an God’s word.’ It is available in the foyer. I have proved scientifically, how can you use ‘Theory of probability.’ Dr. William Campbell used it on the basis of ‘Prophecy.’ If I want, I can try and prove his prophecies wrong – I do not want to do it. I will take it for granted for the sake of argument, using the concordance approach, that whatever prophecies he said, was right – for the sake of argument. But even if there is one unfulfilled prophecy, the whole Bible is disproved to be the word of God – I can give you a list of unfulfilled prophecies. For example if you read Genesis, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 12, it says… ‘God told Cain: you will never be able to settle you will be a wanderer.’ Few Verses later on Genesis, Chapter No.4, Verse No.17, says…‘Cain built up a city’ – unfulfilled prophecy. If you read Jeremiah, Chapter No.36, Verse No.30, it says that…‘Jehoiachin the father of Jehoiachin… no one will be able to sit on his throne – The throne of David, no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin.’ If you read later on, II Kings, Chapter No 24, Verse No 6, it says that… ‘Jehoiachin after he died, later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne’ – Unfulfilled prophecy. One is sufficient to prove it is not the word of God – I can give plenty. If you read Ezekiel, Chapter No 26, it says that…‘Nebuchader, he will destroyed Tyre.’ We come to know that Alexander the great, was the person who destroyed Tyre – Unfulfilled prophecy. Isaiah, Chapter No. 7, Verse No 14, says, prophesying of…‘The coming of a person who will be born to a virgin – his name shall be Emmanuel.’ They say… the Christians – it refers to Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Born to a virgin – the Hebrew word there is ‘amla’, which means not ‘a virgin’- ‘a young lady.’ The word for ‘virgin’ in Hebrew is, ‘baitula’, which is not there. Even if you agree – we are using concordance – we agree… ‘Virgin’… ‘Virgin’ – No problem. It says… ‘He will be called Immanuel.’ No where in the Bible is Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is called as Immanuel – Unfulfilled prophecy. I can give several, plenty unfulfilled prophecies – One is sufficient to prove the Bible wrong – I have given a few. According to your theory of… theory of probability – Bible is not the word of God. Dr. William Campbell said that…‘According to the Qur’an, Elaijah won the battle – according to the Bible, Elaijah lost the battle’ – Whatever it is. That does not mean that Bible is correct and Qur’an is wrong. If the statements differ in the Bible and the Qur’an, you are assuming Bible is the word of God. If both are supposed to be analyzed, it can be possible that Qur’an is right, and Bible is wrong. It can be possible Bible is right, and Qur’an is wrong. It can be possible both are wrong. It can be possible both are right. So what we have to do, if we have to analyze which of the two is wrong, you have to get a third source from outside, which is authentic. Just because Bible says…‘Elaijah lost’ – and Qur’an says…‘Elaijah won’ – therefore Qur’an is wrong – it is illogical. And Dr. William Campbell, besides replying to scientific errors I had mentioned – I will just touch on the points which I could not due to lack of time. There are an additional 6 or 7 points, which he mentioned in his talk, which InshaAllah; I will give the reply briefly. He spoke that the Qur’an says…according to me – and he showed my cassette according to Br. Shabbir Ali that…The light of the moon is reflected light.’ And he said… ‘It doesn’t mean that.’ I am quoting again… ‘The Qur’an mentions in Surah Furqan, Chapter No.25, Verse No.61 that… ‘Blessed is He who has placed in the sky constellation, placed there in lamp… ‘Sun’ and ‘moon’ having ‘borrowed light’… ‘Munir.’ Arabic word used for ‘moon’ is ‘Qamar’ – It is always described as ‘Munir’ or ‘Nur’ meaning ‘reflection of light.’ Arabic word used for ‘sun’ is ‘Shams’ – It is always described as ‘wahad’ ‘dia’, which means ‘a blazing torch’, ‘A shining glory.’ And I can give references Surah Nur, Chapter No.71 Verse.15 and 16, Surah Yunus, Chapter No.10 Verse No.5 and so on. And he said that if it means ‘a reflection of light’, – and he quoted the Qur’an, Surah Al-Nur Chapter No.24, Verse No.35 and 36 that… ‘Allah Subhanawataala is ‘Nuras samawati wal ardz’. ‘Is the light of the heavens and the earth.’ Read the complete verse, and analyze what does it says. It says… ‘Allah is the light’… ‘Nur.’ It says… ‘Allah is the light of the Heavens and the Earth.’ It is a similitude – like a niche, and within the niche there is lamp. The ‘lamp… word is there. So Allah Subhanawataala has got light of its own, and even reflected light. Like you see a halogen lamp – you know which are here. The lamp inside is like a ‘siraj’ but the reflector is like moon – it is reflecting light. The lamp, the tube… the tube is having a light of its own, but the reflector of the halogen lamp is reflecting light – So both two in one. So Allah Subhanawataala, Alhamdulillah…besides having light of its own – as the Qur’anic verse says… In the niche there is a lamp, and that lamp light of Allah Subhanawataala, is its own light, and Allah reflects its own light. Dr. William Campbell says that… ‘The Qur’an says that… ‘Qur’an is nur’… It is reflecting light.’ Of course – The Qur’an is reflecting the light and the guidance of Allah Subhanawataala. Regarding Prophet Mohammed Sallallahu alaihi wasallam being Siraj – Yes he is. The Hadith of the beloved Prophet is giving guidance to us. So Muhammad Sallallahu alaihi wassallam – he is also ‘nur’ he is also ‘Siraj’- Alhamdullillah. He has his own knowledge also – Alhamdulillah. He has the guidance from Allah Subhanawataala-Alhamdulillah. So if you use this word ‘Nur’ as reflected light, and Munir as reflected light, yet Alhamdulillah, you can prove it scientifically that the light of the moon is not its own light, but it is the reflected light. The other points, Dr. William Campbell raised was regarding Surah Kahf Chapter No.18, Verse No.86, that… ‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water – Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is… it is ‘wajada’ meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’ And Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic. So ‘wajada’ means – if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’ So Allah Subhanawataala is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain. If I make a statement that… ‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ And you say… ‘Oh Zakir said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5. I did not say. I am telling…‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ I am not wrong – The student is wrong. There are various ways to try and analyze this verse. One is this way – according to Muhammad Asad, that ‘wajada’ means… ‘It appeared to’… ‘It appeared to Zulqarnain.’ Point no.2 – The Arabic word used is ‘Magrib’ – It can be used for time, as well as place. When we say ‘sunset’ – ‘sunset’ can be taken for time. If I say… ‘The sun sets at 7 p.m.’; I am using it for time. If I say… ‘The ‘Sun sets in the West’, it means I am taking it for place. So here if we use the word ‘Magrib’ for time. So Zulqarnain did not reach that place of sunset – used – as time – He reached at the time of sun set. The problem is solved. Further more, you can solve them in various ways. Even if Dr. William Campbell says… ‘No No, the basic assumption is too much – It is not… ‘Appeared to’… it is actually this.’ Let us analyze it further. The Qur’anic verse says… the Sun set in murky water.’ Now we know, when we use these words, like ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’ – does the sunrise? Scientifically, sun does not rise – neither does the sunset. We know scientifically, that the sun does not set at all. It is the rotation of the earth, which gives rise to sunrise and sunset. But yet you read in the everyday papers mentioning, sunrise at 6 a.m. sun sets at 7.00 p.m. Oh! The newspapers are wrong – Unscientific!’ If I use the word ‘Disaster’, Oh! There is a disaster’ – ‘Disaster’ means there is some calamity which has taken place. Literally, ‘disaster’ means ‘an evil star.’ So when I say… ‘This disaster’ every one knows what I mean is ‘a calamity’, not about the evil star.’ Dr. William Campbell and I know, when a person who is mad, we call him a lunatic – Yes or no? At least I do, and I believe Dr. William Campbell also will be doing that. We call a person ‘a lunatic’ – He is ‘mad.’ What is the meaning of ‘lunatic’? It means… ‘struck by the moon’ – But that is how the language has evolved. Similarly sun rise, is actually, it is just a usage of words. And Allah has given the guidance for the human beings also – He uses so, that we understand. So it is just ‘sunset’ – Not that it is actually setting – Not that sun is actually rising. So this explanation clearly gives us a clear picture, that the Verse of the Qur’an of Surah Kahf, Chapter.18, Verse No 86, is not in contradiction with established science – That is the way how people speak. He quoted Surah Furqan, Chapter. 25, Verse. 45 and 46, that…
‘The shadow lengthens and prolongates – We can make it stationary – the sun is its guide.’
And in his book he mentions… ‘Does the sun move?’ Where does this Verse say… ‘The sun moves.’ In Surah Furqan, Chapter.25, Verse. 45 and 46, does not say the sun moves. And he writes is his book… ‘We were taught in eliminatory school’ – and he said that also in his talk that… ‘It is due to the rotation of the earth, that the shadow prolongs and gets small. But what the Qur’an says… ‘The sun is its guide.’ Today, even a person who has not gone to school, knows that shadow is due to sunlight. Even a layman, who has not gone to school, knows that shadow is due to sunlight. So Qur’an is perfectly right – It does not say the sun moves and the shadow is caused. He is putting his own words in the Qur’an. The Sun is its guide – It is guiding the shadow – Without sunlight, you cannot have shadow. Yes, you can have shadows of the light – it is a different thing. But here it is referring to the shadow, which you see, which is moving – Prolonging and becoming short. Dr. William Campbell spoke about Solomon’s death – Surah Saba, Chapter 34, Verse 12 to 14, and said that… ‘Imagine a person standing on the stick, and he dies, and no one come to know, etc.’ here are various ways to explain – Point no 1, Solomon peace be him, he was a Prophet of God, and it can be a miracle. When Bible says that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, could give life to the dead, Jesus Christ is born of a virgin birth. Which is more difficult to imagine’ – Being born of a virgin birth, giving life to the dead… or standing on a stick for a very long time. Which is more difficult. So when God can do miracles through Jesus Christ peace is upon him, why cannot he do a miracle through Solomon Alai Salaam. Moosa Alai Salaam parted the sea. He threw a stick – stick become a snake – Bible says that… Qur’an says that. So when God can do that, why cannot God let a man rest for a long period? Any way I have give him various different answers – No where does the Qur’an say that Sulaiman Alai salaam rested on the stick for a very long period – No where does it say. It just says that… animal…. May be some say… ‘Ant’… may be other animal of the earth came and bit – May be possible. May be, that Sulaiman alai salaam was just dead, and any animal may have shook the stick, and Sulaiman alai salaam may have fallen down. But I assume – I use the conflict approach with the Qur’an – because irrespective whether you use the conflict approach or the concordance approach, the ayat I quoted in the beginning of my talk Surah Nisa, Chapter 4 Verse, 82, says… (Arabic)… ‘Do they not consider the Qur’an with care?’ Had it been from anyone besides Allah, there would have been many contradictions.’ Irrespective, whether you use the conflict approach or the concordance approach, if your logical, is you will not be able to take out a single Verse of the Qur’an, which is contradicting – neither a single verse which is against established science.
I agree with Dr. William Campbell, that Sulaiman Alai Salaam stayed for a long time. The answer is given in the same verse that after Sulaiman Alai Salaam fell down; the Jinn’s said that… ‘If we would have known that Solomon, peace be upon him died, we would not have toiled so hard.’ Indicating, that even the Jinns do not have ‘Ilm-e-gaib’ – They do not have knowledge of the unseen. Because the Jinns thought themselves to be very great – So Allah is teaching them, that even they do not have ‘Ilm-e-gaib’. Dr. William Campbell touched on ‘the production of milk’, in Surah Nahl, Chapter 16, Verse 66. The first person who told about the circulation of blood, was Ibn Nafees, 600 years after the Revelation of the Qur’an. And 400 years after Ibn Nafees, William Harvey made it common to the Western world – That is 1000 years after the Revelation of the Glorious Qur’an. The food you eat, go into the intestine, and from the intestines, the food constituents reach the various organs, via the blood stream – many a times via the portal system of liver – and it even reaches the mammary gland, which is responsible for production of the milk. And Qur’an gives this information of modern science in a nutshell in Surah Nahl, Chapter. 16, Verse. 66, where it says that…
‘Verily in the catte, is a lesson for you. We give you to drink from what is with in their body, coming from a conjunction between the constituent of the intestine and blood – milk which is pure for you to have.’
Alhamdulillah, what we came to know recently… just recently in science means 50 years back, 100 years back – Qur’an mentions this information 1400 years ago, and repeats this message in Surah Muminum, Chapter 23, Verse 21. Dr. William Campbell raised the point about… ‘Animals living in community.’ The Qur’an says in Surah Anam, Chapter 6, Verse. 38…
‘We have created every animal that lives on the earth, and every bird that flies in the air, to live in communities, like you.’
And Dr. William Campbell says that… ‘You know the spider kills the mate and, the father, etc… do we kill? And the lion does that, and the elephant does that – he is talking about the behavior. The Qur’an is not referring to behavior. If Dr. William Campbell can not understand the Qur’an, that does not mean Qur’an is wrong. The Qur’an says… ‘They live in communities’ – Talking about, the animals and the birds live in-groups, in societies like the human beings – It is not talking about behavior.
And today science tells that all the animals, the birds and the living creatures of the world – they live in communities. Like the human beings means… they live together. And I did not have time to touch on all the points on embryology – I have touched on all his 8, 9 topics, which he spoke on. Embryology… I will go more in detail. The points he raised in embryology besides the one I clarified in my talk – He said that the stages of development were mentioned by Hypocrites and by Gallon, and he showed the various slides. The point to be noted – Just because someone says something, which are matching with the Qur’an, that does not mean that Qur’an has been copied from that. Suppose I make a statement… suppose, if I make a statement, which is correct, which was said by somebody else earlier – That does not mean I have copied. It may be, It may not be. To use the conflict approach with the Qur’an… ‘Yes! He copied’ – Okay fine – But lets analyze. The Qur’an does not take the things which were wrong from Hypocrites. If he would have copied, he would have copied everything – it is logical. Unless he is a scientist… ‘Okay this is correct… Oh! This is wrong I won’t copy that – This is correct, I will copy that.’ All the stages of Hypocrites, and Gallon is not the same as the Qur’an – Hypocrites and Gallon does not speak about ‘leech like substance.’ They do not speak about ‘mudgah’ at all – Where do they speak? Hypocrites and Gallon, at that time, they said that… ‘Even the women have got semen’ – who says that? – Even the Bible says that. If you read in the Bible, it is mentioned in Leviticus Chapter No.12, Verse No.1 to 12, that woman gives out seed – So actually Bible is copying from Hypocrites. And Bible says in Job… Bible says in Job, Chapter No.10, Verse No.9 and 10, that… ‘We have made the human beings from clay, like poured out milk and curdled cheese.’ Poured out milk and curdled cheese, is exact plaguerisation from Hypocrites. Why plaguerisation? – Because surely that is not the word of God – That portion is unscientific. It was said by Hypocrites and Gallon, the Greeks, that… ‘Human beings are created like curdled cheese’ – And Bible copies that exactly. But Qur’an Alhamdulillah, and if you analyze and read the books on ‘Embryology, even of Dr. Keith Moore, he said that… ‘Hypocrites and the other people like Gallon, etc, they did give a lot of thing to embryology, initially, as well as Aristotle’ – Many were right, many were wrong.’ And further he goes to says… ‘In the middle ages, or at the time of the Arabs, the Qur’an speaks about something additional.’ If it was exactly copied, why would Dr. Keith Moore in his book, give due credit to the Qur’an. He even gives due credit to Aristotle, to Hypocrites – but mentioned there… ‘Many were wrong.’ That, he does not mention with the Qur’an. That is enough proof, that Qur’an was not copied from the Greek time. Regarding ‘light of the moon.’… ‘Light of the moon’ was copied from Greeks. You will tell me that… ‘The world is spherical’ was copied from Greeks. I know the Pthogorous, the Greeks lived in 6th century B.C. who believed that the earth rotated – they believed that the sunlight was reflected. If Prophet Mohammed… Nauzubillah… copied – why did not he copy… they believed the sun was stationary – they believed the sun was the center of the universe. So why did Prophet Mohammed copy the correct thing, and delete the things that were not correct? This is sufficient proof that Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, did not copy. He goes to give a list, that from Greek to Cyriac, Cyriac to Arabic… and big research. One statement of the Qur’an is sufficient to disprove it.
The Qur’an says in Surah Ankabut, Chapter. 29, Verse No.48, that…
‘Thou was not able to recite any book before this, nor was thou able to transcribe with thy right hand.’ If it were so, the talkers of vanity would have surely doubted.’
The Prophet was an ‘ummi.’ – He was an illiterate. This factor of history is sufficient to prove that he did not plagiarize from anywhere. Enough! Imagine! Even a scientist, who is very literate, cannot do this thing. But Allah in his Divine Guidance made the last Prophet, as an ‘ummi’ – So that the talkers of vanity like people who write books against Islam, they cannot open their months. The prophet was ‘ummi.’ There are various things that I can continue speaking about the Bible. I have covered up all his arguments against Qur’an… Alhamdulillah, not a single point to prove Qur’an is against science. He has not touched on 22 points of mine. Touched on 2 – not proven. So all twenty-two yet prove, that Bible is incompatible with modern science. Point no.23 – In the field of Zoology… in the field of Zoology, it is mentioned in Leviticus, Chapter No.11 Verse No.6, that… ‘Hare is a cud chewer.’ We know that Hare, does not chew cud’ – Previously people thought by the movement of the hare. Now we know hare is not a cud chewer, neither does it have a compact mentalised stomach. It is mentioned in the Proverbs, Chapter No. 6, Verse No. 7, that… ‘Ant has got no ruler, no sear, no chief.’ Today we know that ants are sophisticated insects. They have a very good system of labour, in which they have chief, they have foreman, they have workers. They even have a queen, they have a ruler – Therefore Bible is unscientific. Further more, it is mentioned in the Bible, in Genesis, Chapter 3, Verse 14, and Isaiah Chapter 65, verse No. 25, that… ‘Serpents eat dust.’ No Geological book says ‘Serpents eat dust.’ It is mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20… ‘Among the abomination things, fowls with four feet – They are an abomination.’ And some scholars say that ‘fowl’ is a wrong translation of the Hebrew word ‘uff.’ In King James, it should be ‘insect’ or ‘winged creature.’ And in New International Version, it says… ‘Winged creature.’ But it says… ‘All insects which are four footed, are an abomination – They are detestful for you.’ I want to ask Dr. William Campbell… ‘Which insects have got four feet?’ Even a student, who has passed elementary school, knows that insects have got 6 feet. There is no bird in the world, there is no foul in the world, there is no insect in the worlds, which have got four feet. Furthermore there are mythical animals, and fabulous animals mentioned in the Bible, as though they exist – For example unicorn. It is mentioned in the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 34, Verse No.7, talking about unicorn as though it exists. You look open the dictionary, it says… ‘An animal which has got a horses’ body, and a horn which is only available in myths.’ My time is over – only I would like to tell, that I apologize if I have hurt the feelings of any Christians – That was not my intention. It was just a reply to Dr. William Campbell’s book, to prove that Qur’an is compatible with science. And Bible, though a portion we do consider, may be the word of God – Complete is not the word of God – It is not in conciliation. And I would like to end my talk with the quotation of the Glorious Qur’an from Surah Isra Chapter.17, Verse No.81, which says…(Arabic)… When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.
Wa Aakhrudawana Anil Hamdulillahi Rabbil Aalameen.
(Dr. Mohammed) Thank you Dr. Campbell, Dr. Zakir Naik, for your presentations, as well as the response. Lastly, we have the audience participation session, namely the Question and Answer session. To extract maximum benefit, in the limited time of 60 minutes. approximately, that we have available, we would like the following rules to be observed. Your questions should be only on the topic ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of the subject of science – Questions out of the topic would not be entertained. Kindly state your question briefly and to the point – this is not a lecture time, neither a counter question time, for the questioners. Dr William Campbell and Dr. Zakir Naik should answer comprehensively, and each answer should not exceed 5 minutes. Four mikes have been provided in the auditorium for the questions from the mikes – Two next to the stage for the gents, and two in the rear of the center ailes, for the ladies. Those who would like to put forward a question to Dr. William Campbell, May kindly queue up behind the mikes on my left – Gents in the front, ladies in the rear. And those who would like to put forward a question to Dr. Zakir, may kindly line up behind the mikes on my right – Gents in the front and the ladies in the rear. I would like the audience in the balcony, to kindly excuse us. We are happy that this is a full session jam packed hall – but we would request you to kindly take the trouble to come down to the mikes, if you would like to put forward a question. Only one question at a time may be put forward – if you have a second question, you would have to line up behind again, to put forward your second question. Written question on index cards, available from the volunteers in the aisles, would be given secondary preference, after the questions on the mikes are handled by the speakers. Please write on the card to whom your question is addressed – Dr. William Campbell’ or ‘Dr. Zakir Naik’, so that they can be put in the appropriate boxes in front of you – Transparent boxes with the names ‘Dr. William Campbell’ and ‘Dr. Zakir Naik’ put on them, so that the questions could be shaken up be the co ordinators, and the speakers themselves could select the questions at random. These would be screened by the panel of the speakers, to see that they are relevant and on the topic, and okayed by the co. ordinators, to be put forward on the co ordinators mike, which the speakers would have to answer. Kindly state your name and profession, before putting forward your question. We will allow one question at a time, in a clockwise rotation, alternately addressed to each speaker. Like, Dr. Campbell… one question, Dr. Zakir Naik… the second question, then Dr. Campbell the 3rd question, and Dr. Zakir Naik the second question. I am sorry it would be a zigzag fashion, rather than a clockwise fashion – the way the mikes have been arranged by the organizers. So first question next to the stage, 2nd question next to the stage, 3rd question on my left in the rear, 4th question in the rear on my right, and so on. We would allow approximately 40 minutes for these questions, and then we switch over to the questions on the slips. May we have the first question from the mike on my left for Dr. William Campbell.
(Q) – I would like to ask Dr. Campbell if…. In Genesis, it says… when it talks about the flood, Noah’s flood – it talks about, that the water covered the surface of the earth, all the creations and all the mountains and everything, and it says that it covered the highest mountain on earth, and that was 15 cubits, which is in Arabic, 15 foot you know ‘kadam.’ So we know scientifically that the highest mountain on earth is not 15 foot – you know it is a lot higher than that – so how come that in Genesis, it says that the water covered everything, every single mountain on earth – and the highest was 15 foot?
(Dr. William Campbell) Thank you for your question – I think it is saying is that it is above the highest mountain. If the highest mountain is 3000 meters, well then high … it is 15 feet …15 foots above, it however.
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother we will not allow any questions in between – No counter questions please. Let the questioner put his question – full stop. Then the speaker gives his answer in whatever manner he chooses – Thank you.
(Dr. William Campbell) And I looked into this, in the Qur’an – I think it actually would be understood to be in the same way. Because it says in Surah 11 Verse 40… ‘The fountains of the earth gushed forth and the waves like mountains.’ And then it says in the places where it gives a list of prophets – there is no prophet before Noah. And so I know Adam could be a Prophet, but I am…. So no where is it listed. And I think that it says in the Qur’an too, that the whole world was covered.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes brother, question for Dr. Zakir Naik – Could the volunteer kindly put the mike down?
(Q) Dr. Zakir, you said that there is a…
(Dr. Mohammed) Excuse me, Excuse me…. The second question would come from the mike on my right, for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Okay you said that Allah reflects light and…. He is made of Nur – I did not really understand that.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother posed a question – he did not understand my explanation to the counter argument of Dr. William Campbell, regarding ‘Nur’ and ‘Allah.’ The Qur’an says in Surah Nur, Chapter 24, Verse No. 35, that Allah is ‘Nurus samaavaati wal ardh’ ‘is the light’ of the heavens and the earth – He is a light. The meaning of ‘light’ in the Qur’an – it is ‘reflected light’ or borrowed light. So he is asking… ‘Does it mean that even Allah has got borrowed light?’ So the answer is given further, if you read the Verse – it says that it is like a parable of a nitche – In the nitche there is a lamp. Lamp has a light of its own. That means, Allah has light of its own, as well as that light of its own, is also being reflected. The light of Allah Subhnawataala is again being reflected by Allah Subhanawataala himself, like a halogen lamp that you see here – It has a tube in between. The lamp you can refer to that, as a ‘Siraj’ or a ‘Wahaj’ or a ‘Dia.’ And the reflector as ‘Munir’ or ‘Nur’, borrowed light or ‘reflection of light.’ And further more, but natural this light – actually does not refer to the physical light you are talking about – It is a spiritual light of Allah Subhnawataala – But as an answer I have given to Dr. William Campbell. And since I have got 5 minutes, I would like to utilize it. Dr. William Campbell gave a reply to Noah Alai Salaam – I am a person who use the concordance approach with the Bible, and conflict approach the Qur’an, because both ways Alhamdullilah, Qur’an will pass the test. And even if I agree with Dr. William Campbell, and I agree with him – it is right, that it was 15 feet above the highest mountain. But it is mentioned in Genesis, Chapter No 7, Verse No 19 and 20, that… ‘The full world was submerged under water.’ And further more, archeological evidence show us today – and the time. Of Noah’s time if you calculate by Genealogy, it comes to in the 21st to 22nd century B.C. Archeological evidence show us today, that the 3rd Dynasty of Babylon, and 11th Dynasty of Egypt, were present at the 21st and 22nd century B.C. and there was no evidence of flood – and they remained uninterrupted. Therefore, Archeological evidence show us, that it is impossible that the earth was submerged – the full earth was submerged under water, in the 21st, 22nd century B.C. What about the Qur’an?… What about the Qur’an? Point no 1 – Qur’an does not give a date – whether 21st Century B.C. or 50th century B.C. – no date. Point no 2 – No where does the Qur’an say – the full world was submerged under water. It speaks about Noah Alai Salaam and his Qaum… and his people – A small group of people, or maybe a large group of people. Archeological evidences tell today – and the Archeologists they say, that… ‘We have no objection – it is possible that parts of the world was submerged under water – but full world, its not possible.’ So Alhamdulillah, the Qur’an is matching with the latest discoveries in Archeology, but the Bible does not. Further more, if you read Genesis, Chapter No 6, Verse No. 15 and 16, it speaks about Almighty God, telling Noah Alai Salaam, that build an ark – and it gives the length, 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in breadth, and height 30 cubit. Cubit is 1 and a half feet – The brother made a mistake – it is one and a half feet. And the New International Version – it says… 450 feet in length, and 75 feet in breadth, and approximately 45 feet in height – It is 30 cubit in height. If you measure this… I have done the calculation – it comes too less then 150 thousand cubic feet in volume and area wise 33,750. And the Bible says there were 3 floors – Ground floor, 1st storey, and 2nd storey. So multiply by 3, you get an answer of 101 thousand, 250 square feet – That is the area. Imagine a pair of all the species of the world, was accommodated in 101 thousand, 250 square feet. Imagine! Is it possible? …Millions of species are there in the world? If I tell… ‘In this auditorium… one million people came in this auditorium’- Will you believe? I remember, I think last year, I had given a talk in Kerala – and there were 1 million people – that is the biggest gathering I have addressed, Alhamdulillah by Allah’s grace. 1 million people! I could not see the end – It was not an auditorium – it was a big beach. I could not see any one – Only few people in the front – That is all. Few… compared to the one million people that were there. If you see on the videocassette, you will realize how big is one million – Somewhat like Arafat – you see 2 ½ million people in Arafat. In a area of 101 thousand, 250 square feet, or 150 thousand cubit feet, it is impossible – and above that they stayed for 40 days eating, going for call of nature. If say…‘1 million people came in this auditorium’ – Will you believe? So scientifically, there are several things, in which there are gross scientific errors in the Bible.
(Dr. Mohammed) Can we have the next question for Dr. Campbell, from the mike at the rear ?
(Q) Dr. Naik, you said that…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) No… No…. Excuse me – This question is for Dr. Campbell, so you have to wait.
(Dr. Mohammed) So the next person would like to ask a question to Dr. Campbell.
(Q) Yes! I would like to pose this question or rather this test, to Dr. William Campbell. Why do not you attempt the falsification test of the Bible, given in the book of Mark, Chapter. 16, Verses 17 and 18, and prove to the audience here, right now, that you are a true Christian believer?
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I do not agree with Dr. Naik’s interpretation. God… Jesus himself was tempted, and the devil said… ‘Well, if you are the Son of God, throw yourself off the temple.’ And Jesus said… ‘You will not tempt the Lord, your God. And so if I was this day and say… ‘Oh yes… I am going to be sure, and do a miracle in front of you’ – I would be tempting God. My friend Harry Rancliff – he had promised to go, and so he decided to keep his promise, and trust God to do His will.
It is a different situation – I will not tempt God.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Question for Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) May we have the question in the rear, from the sister ?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) She is for Dr. Naik, or Campbell ?
(Dr. Mohammed) At the back.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Do you have a question for Dr. Naik at the back, ladies?
(Q) Yes… okay my question is for Dr. Zakir Naik. The Christians explain the concept of trinity, scientifically by giving the example of water, which can be in 3 states – solid, liquid and gas, in the form of ice water and vapour. Similarly, one God is a triune God – Father, son and Holy Ghost. Is this explanation scientifically correct?
(Dr. Zakir) Just a comment, before I give the answer – We should not tempt God… we should not test God – But here, we are not testing God, we are testing the human being. We should not test God – But here we are testing you, and God promises that any believer, who has deadly poison, he will not die – he will be able to speak in foreign tongues. We are not testing God – we know God is correct – He will see to it that every believer can speak. We are testing you, whether you are a believer or not Coming to the question of the sister, that there are Christians who say that scientifically we can prove the concept of trinity – like how water can be in 3 states solid, liquid and gas… like ice, water and vapour, so similarly, we know God is in 3 forms father, son and holy ghost. How to reply – and is this scientifically correct ?
Scientifically, I do agree water can be in 3 forms solid, liquid and gas… Ice, water and vapour. But scientifically, we also know that the component of water remains the same. H2O – 2 atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen. The components remain the same; the constituents remain the same – the forms keep on changing; there is no problem. Let us check with the concept of ‘trinity’- Concept of trinity – Father, son, and holy ghost – Form… they say… ‘Form changes.’ Okay for the sake of argument, we agree. Does the component change? God and holy Ghost are made of spirit – Human beings are made of flesh and bones – They are not the same. Human beings require to eat – God does not require to eat, to survive – They are not the same. And this is testified by Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, himself in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter No. 24, Verse No. 36 to 39. He says that… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ He says… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ And he gave his hands, and they saw, and they were overjoyed. And he said that… ‘Do you have any meat to eat ?’ And they gave him broiled fish and a piece of honeycomb – And he ate. To prove what? That he was God? To prove that he was not God. He ate, and he is flesh and bones – A spirit has got no flesh and bones. This proves that it is scientifically not possible that Father, son and Holy Ghost – Father, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and Holy Ghost, is Almighty God. And the concept of ‘trinity’, – the word ‘trinity’ does not exist anywhere in the Bible. The word trinity is not there in the Bible – But it is there in the Qur’an. Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 171, it says…. (Arabic)…. Do not say trinity…. (Arabic)…desist stop it! It is better for you.’ Trinity is also there in Surah Maidah, Chapter No.5, Verse No.73, which says …(Arabic)… They are doing ‘Kufr’ – They are blaspheming – those who say that Allah in 3 in one – Is a triune God. Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never said he was God – The concept of trinity does not exist in the Bible. The only verse which is closest to the concept of ‘trinity’, is the 1st Epistle of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.7, which says… ‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the word and the holy ghost, and these 3 are one. But if you read the Revised Standard Version, revised by 32 scholars… Christian scholars, of the highest eminence, backed by 50 different co-operative denominations, they say… ‘This verse of the Bible – 1st Epistle of John, Chapter 5 Verse No.7 is an interpolation, is a concoction, is a fabrication’ – It was thrown out of the Bible. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. There is not a single unequivocal statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ peace be upon him says… ‘I am God’ – or where he says… ‘Worship me’. Infect if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the Gospel of John, Chapter No.14, Verse No.28 – he said…‘My Father is greater than I’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.10, Verse No.29…‘My Father is greater than all’; Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.12, Verse No.28…‘I cast out devils with the spirit of God’; Gospel of Luke, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20…‘I with the finger of God, cast out devil’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.30… ‘I can of my own self do nothing’…‘I can of my own self do nothing – As I hear, I judge and my judgement is just, for I seek not my own will, but the will of my Father.’ Anyone who says… ‘Not my will but God’s will’ – he is a Muslim. Muslim means the person who submits his’ will to almighty God. Jesus Christ peace be upon him said…‘Not my will but God’s will.’ He was a Muslim – and he was Alhamdulillah, one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe…We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention. We believe he gave life to the dead, with God’s permission. We believe that he healed those born blind, and lepers with God’s permission. We respect Jesus Christ peace be upon him, as one of the mightiest messenger of God. But he is not God, and he is not a part of the trinity – Trinity does not exist. Qur’an says…. (Arabic)…
‘Say He is Allah, one and only.’
(Dr. Mohammed) Before we have the next question from the mike have – earlier I had announced that the ladies should kindly queue up there. Unfortunately they have not queued up there – so we are having a problem of balancing the questions. Okay what we do, we disregard the labels on the mike – If the ladies want to ask from here, we will allow them. Just balance this in practical necessity the hall is jam packed, we understand. We will allow now, one question for Dr. Campbell from here – And the rear mike will be for people who would like to ask questions from the gents, for Dr. Zakir. Similarly for the ladies, the front mike would be for Dr. William Campbell -and the rear mike would be for Dr. Zakir. Are the people queued there… for Dr. Zakir? – Yes. People queued here… for Dr. Campbell? Right. I think they have taken their own positions and changed the positions the organizers had given. We respect it, because of the rush in the hall. Next question for Dr. Campbell, from this mike – Thank you – Yes brother.
(Q) As Salaamu alaikum – Alhamdulillah tonight has been… praise be to Allah, Praise be to the one God, of all mankind – Tonight has been a very interesting dialogue – and a dialogue at that, talking about a very noble topic for mankind, for all mankind, and so we have gathered here….
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Question… question please.
(Q) Okay – Bismillah… In the name of Allah.
The question is this – Okay, we have come here together for this event tonight – It should benefit us. And so I am asking Dr. Campbell – As a Christian and with your colleagues as well, has this event done its job – Has it opened your heart. Has it at least opened the glimmer, towards looking further into the truth of Islam?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you.
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I think I will use the last question to answer yours.
Dr. Naik says… ‘There is no place where Jesus says he is God.’ In Mark 14:61, He did not answer – and again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him… ‘Are you the Christ, the son of the Blessed One?’ In other words… ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of God ?’ And Jesus said… ‘I am.’ So he did say…‘I am the Son of God, and he did say… ‘he is Divine.’ And the Bible clearly says. I realize he has quoted the verses, he wished to quote – Dr. Naik wished to quote, where Jesus was in his human form. But there is other verses, he says… ‘I and the Father are one.’ It says… ‘In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. And God was made flesh, and dwelt among us.’ In Jesus’ baptism, the Father spoke and said… ‘This is my beloved son.’ Jesus was there and the Holy Spirit descended – The Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. We did not make this thing up from one heads. Just …a little thing – and now my friend asked the question here… ‘We have learned many things’, and I am always willing to learn. But I still think, that the 500 witnesses that saw Jesus after he rose from the dead, have more power with me, than Mohammed coming 600 years later as one witness – Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) We will allow a question for Dr. Zakir from the rear – Yes sister.
(Q) Dr. Campbell did first attempt to bring up supposed false facts pertaining to the Qur’anic views on the universe – and you did refute these accusations. However… was not addressed, what the Bible says about the shape of the earth, and those other aspects.
(Dr. Zakir) Sister asked the question that I did not address, regarding what the Bible says about the shape of the earth – due to lack of time – I can point out another 100 points – lack of time. Anyhow, sister wants to know what the Bible speaks about shape of the earth. It is mentioned in the Bible, in the Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.4, Verse No.8, it says – the same reference which Dr. William Campbell used about tempting… ‘The devil took him… that is Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth and its glory. Gospel of Luke Chapter No.4, Verse No.5…‘The devil took him to a high mountain and showed him the glory of all the kingdoms of the world.’ Now, even if you go to the tallest mountain, the highest mountain in the world… that is Mount Everest, and supposingly, you have a very good vision, and can see for thousands of miles together – Yet, you will not be able to see all the kingdoms of the world – Because today we know, the earth is spherical. You will not be able to see the kingdom, of the opposite side of the world. The only way you will be able to see, if the earth was flat. That is the description what the Bible gives…‘The earth is flat.’ Further more, this same description is repeated in the book of Daniel, Chapter No.4, Verse No.10 and 11. It says… ‘In a dream, that the tree grew up into the heaven, and there when the tree grew up into the heaven, it grew up so much, that every one from all the ends of the earth, they could see the tree. This is only possible, if the shape of the earth was flat. If a tree is very long and the shape of the earth was flat it is possible. Today it is a universal fact that the world is spherical – You will never be able to see the tree, however much long it is, from the opposite side of the spherical shape of the earth. Further more if you read, it is mentioned in the 1st Chronicles, Chapter No.16, Verse No.30, that… ‘The earth does not move.’ The same is repeated in the book of Psalms, Chapter No.93, Verse No.1, that… ‘Almighty God has stabilized the earth.’ – That means the earth does not move. And in the New International Version, it says that… ‘God has established and stopped the movement of the earth as though…’
(Samuel Nomaan) One minute.
(Dr. Zakir) One minute left or one minute.
(Samuel Nomaan) – One minute left.
(Dr. Zakir) I thought you are asking me to wait for one minute.
Regarding Dr. William Campbell – he said that Jesus Christ peace be upon him said in the Bible in several places, that… ‘He was God’. You can refer to my videocassette ‘Concept of God in major Religions’, which gives all the references and the answers. I will only give you the references of what he quoted…‘I and my Father are one’ is from John, Chapter No 10, Verse No 30. And ‘In the beginning was the word’ is from John Chapter No. 1, Verse No. 1. You go to the context, and you will come to know Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. You can take my cassette, which is available at the foyer outside – ‘Concept of God in major Religions’, and ‘Similarities between Islam and Christianity’, which gives the details, that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed divinity. (Dr. Mohammed) The next question from the lady in the front, for Dr. William.
(Q) You mentioned the test, where a true believer can drink poison, and survive, because of their faith. What about …Resputin, who was poisoned with enough cyanide, killed 16 people and when that did not kill him – he died of blood loss. He was not a good Christian – He had all this. How do you explain this? Well, only a good Christian can drink this poison and live – how do you explain that?
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I do not feel I have to explain it. I mean if Resputin was not a Christian – Well what happened to him has no basis for what happened in the Bible. I said before… Jesus… God did not intend for us to line up here, and start taking poisons, and sees whether he is the true God. Oh sorry! It were not to test God. That was given that these…God said that…these things will happen. An example would be Paul – he went to… when he was shipwrecked – then he… I think it is Creep, but I have the wrong place in my mind – and he landed. And so he was throwing wood in the fire and a snake bit him – Nothing happened to him. But he was not trying to test God – he was trying to throw wood on the fire. It is a different situation.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) No comment please – Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) The next question from the rear, for Dr. Zakir Naik.
(Dr. William Campbell) Excuse … Excuse me…
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes brother.
(Dr. William Campbell) Excuse me sir.
(Dr. Mohammed) Sorry, carry on.
(Dr. William Campbell) I would just like to say about the circle of the earth. In Isaiah 40:22, it says…
‘He, God, sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.’
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes Brother – for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Dr. Zakir, you said there is not any mistake in Qur’an. I see more than 20 mistakes in Arabic grammar, and I will tell you some of them. …(Arabic)… He said in Baqara. And Al-Haj… … (Arabic)…. Which is right, Assabeun or Assabreen – Number 1. Number 2, you said…
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother, one question at a time… Please.
(Q) Of the same thing, he said in Surah Taha, 63….(Arabic) …. Mistake! …. Arabic…. Can you explain that? And there is more than that mistake.
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother we will allow your only… the first part of the question. The second part we will not allow, because we had stated – we will allow one question at a time, so others get a chance too.
(Q) Okay, Okay.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother has asked a very good question. I would like to be more concordance – and agreeing, he has mentioned all 20 grammatical points. And the book he is referring to, by Abdul Faadi… Abdul Faadi correct? – Is the Qur’an infallible? … I can see something… ya… Alhamdulillah my eyesight is good.
I will answer all 20 together, because I have read the book – I will answer all 20, Insha Allah… Insha Allah. Point No. 1 brother… Point No.1… Point No. 1 to be noted – that all Arabic grammar is taken from the Qur’an. Qur’an was the highest Arabic book – A book which has the maximum level of highest literature. All the Arabic grammar has been derived from the Qur’an. Qur’an is the textbook of grammar. Since Qur’an is the textbook of grammar, and all the grammar is derived from the Qur’an, the Qur’an can never have a mistake – Point No.1. Point No. 2… Point No. 2… Point No. 2 – It is like, you know… taking a ruler, and the ruler is there… has a measurement, and your saying the measurement is wrong – It sounds illogical. Point No. 2 – In the different tribes of Arabia, and you know Arabic, and Dr. William Campbell also will agree with me… In different Arabic tribes, the grammar keeps on changing. In some Arabic tribe, the word is feminine; the same word is even masculine in the other tribe. Same word in different tribes – the grammar keeps or changing – Even the gender keeps on changing. So will you check Qur’an, with that faulty grammar? – No! And further more, the eloquence of Qur’an is so high – It is so high, it is far superior. And you know there are various books – On the Internet you go, 12 grammatical mistakes, 21 grammatical mistakes – Abdul Faadi – 20 grammatical mistakes. Do you think the Christian people took out these mistakes? Who took out these mistakes? – Do you know who took out? The Muslims! The Muslim scholars like Zamak Sharif – what they did – that the Qur’an grammar is so high, that it goes against the conventional use of the Arabic. The Qur’an grammar is so high – To prove the Qur’anic grammar was high, they gave examples. And I will give you a couple of examples, which will answer all his 20 questions. They gave the example – like we read in the Qur’an, it says that… ‘The people of Lut Alaihis salaam, they rejected all the messengers.’ ‘They rejected the messengers’… it is mentioned. Dr. William Campbell said… ‘The people of Noah – they rejected the messengers.’ We know from history that there was only one messenger sent to them – So it has a grammatical mistake. Qur’an should have said – The people rejected the ‘messenger’ not ‘messengers.’ I agree with you – with layman grammar like how you and I know, it may be a mistake. But if you read the books written by Arabs – What is the beauty of the Qur’an? The beauty of the Qur’an is – Why does the Qur’an refer ‘messengers’, instead of ‘messenger’? You know why? Because we know that the basic message of all the messengers, was same – That there is one God – About Tawheed – About Allah Subhanawataala. By mentioning, the people of Lut alaihis salaam… the people of Noah, rejected the messenger – It says, by rejecting Lut alahis salaam, they are indirectly rejecting all the messengers.’
See the beauty, see the eloquence… Alhamdulillah! You may think it is a mistake – It is not a mistake. Similarly, people like Anis Shorrosh says, that Qur’an says…‘Qun fa ya Qun…Be and it is’ – It should be ‘Qun fa qaana’ – ‘Be’ and it was. Agreed – Past tense is Qun fa Qaana in Arabic – it is not Qun fa ya Qun. But the Qun fa ya Qun is more superior – It says… Allah – it was, it is, and can do – Past, present and future.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) May we have the next question from the brother in the front, for Dr. William Campbell.
(Q) Dr. Campbell, this is a very sincere question – to learn a little more about Christianity. I want to ask that Jesus’ Ministry was only for 3 years, after he was baptized by John the Baptist. So Jesus, the second most powerful person, after God… the son of God – what are his contribution in his early life from first – one year to say 27 or 28 years – What are his significant contributions?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) This is … excuse me Dr. Campbell, this is not… this is not the topic for tonight – We have, we had…
(Q) In the beginning of the presentation Dr. Campbell mentioned Zulqarnain, from the Chapter 18, of Qur’an, ‘The Cave’ – and he mentioned that, Zulqarnain is Alexander the great. Can you prove me, how you came to that – Zulqarnain is Alexander the great?
(Dr. William Campbell) I only read it in the commentary of Yusuf Ali. But regardless of whether it is Alexander the great, or who it is, the sun does not set in a murky – marsh, and that is what the verse says.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes sister, the question for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) I do not know the exact verse, but the Bible says… ‘When Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man, be for 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.’ Did Jesus peace be upon him, scientifically fulfill the sign of Jonah ?
(Dr. Zakir) What the sister is referring to, is the verse of the Bible, Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No 12, Verse No. 38 and 40, when people asked Jesus Christ peace be upon him… ‘Show me a sign, show me a miracle’. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, says… ‘You evil and adulterations generation, seeketh after a sign, no sign shall be given to you, but the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights, in the heart of the earth’ – Sign of Jonah. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, puts all his eggs in one basket. And if you go to the sign of Jonah… the book of Jonah is less than 2 pages, and most of us know. And if you analyze, that Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights – but Jesus Christ peace be upon him, we know from the Gospels, that he was put on the cross – the alleged crucification – alleged. By late evening, he was brought down from the cross and put in a sepulchre – And on Sunday morning if you see, the stone is moved away, and the sepulchre is completely empty. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is in the tomb, on Friday night – Friday night, he was in the tomb… Friday night.’ He was there in Saturday morning, one day, one night, one day. And he was there Saturday night – so two nights and one day – two nights. And Sunday morning the tomb was empty. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, was there for two nights, and one day – It is not 3 days and 3 nights. Dr. William Campbell gives the reply in his book, that… ‘You know, part of the day can be counted as one day – And if a patient comes to me, who is sick on Saturday night – on Monday morning, and if I ask him… ‘How long are you sick for ? ’ He will say… ‘ 3 days.’ I agree with you – Concordance approach, I agree – I am very generous. You say part of the day, is full day – I agree with you. So Saturday night, part of the day – one day. Sunday, part of the day, full day – one – good. Monday part of the day full day – no problem. If patient says… ‘3 days’ – No objection. But no patient will ever say… ‘3 days and 3 nights.’ I challenge. I have Alhamdulillah, met various patients – I have not come across a single patient, including Christian missionaries, who have ever told to me – who were sick in the night, day before yesterday, saying… ‘I am sick for 3 days, 3 nights.’ So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not say… ‘3 days’ – Jesus Christ peace be upon him said… ‘3 days and 3 nights.’ So it is a mathematical error – Scientifically, Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not prove. And further more, the prophecy says… ‘As Jonah was, so shall the son of man be.’ Jonah was – How? How was Jonah in the belly of the Whale?… Belly of the fish… Dead or alive? Alive – When he was thrown over board, he was alive. In the belly of the whale, he goes around the ocean, dead or alive? – Alive. He prays to Almighty God… dead or alive ? – Alive! He is vomited out on the seashore – Dead of alive? Alive, alive, alive, alive. When I ask the Christians…
‘How was Jesus Christ peace be upon him, in the sepulchre… in the tomb – Dead of alive ?’ They tell me… ‘Dead.’
‘Alive?’ – Alhamdulillah! – Is it a Christian? If he is alive, Alhamdulillah he was not crucified – If he is dead, he has not fulfilled the sign. You can refer to my video cassette ‘Was Jesus Christ peace be upon him really crucified ?’ – I have proved that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified. As the Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse No. 157… (Arabic) …
‘They did not kill him, neither did they crucify him – It was only made to appear so.’
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) Doctor…. Question for Doctor William.
(Q) Doctor Campbell, since you are a medical doctor, could you please explain scientifically, the various medical aspects that are in the Bible, regarding…. Because you did not answer them in your rebuttal. For example, blood used as a disinfectant, bitter water test for adultery, and most importantly, that the woman is unclean for double the period, when she gives birth to a daughter, than as compared to a son?
(Dr. William Campbell) Thank you for the question, and I will get to it – But Dr. Naik keeps getting the questions that should come to the Christian. It says that… ‘On the next day when it was one, after the preparation, the Chief Priest and the Phrases gathered together with Pilot. And said… ‘Sir, we remember that when he was still alive, that he had said: After 3 days I am to rise again – Therefore give waters, for the grave to be made secure, until the 3rd day. So they are using these words, interchangeably. As far as I am concerned, all of these word… ‘The 3rd day, after the 3rd day, equal what happened with Jesus in the grave – The other thing is and then, his resurrection. There is one other thing – When Jesus was arrested, on Thursday night…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Please be quiet – This is not going to work like this – Please be patient.
(Dr. William Campbell) Thursday, and Thursday after… When he was arrested, he said… ‘My hour has come.’ And so I counted that 3 days and 3 nights. Now you have asked me about these places in the Bible – I believe the Bible was written by God, and I believe that God put them in there. So it is not up to me to explain what God said – But I believe that God put those things in his Bible. (Dr. Mohammed) Now we will have the last question on the mike, from the brothers at the back, for Dr. Zakir – then we start the questions on index cards. That is the last question, as per one-time limitations please – for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Salaam alaikum – My name is Aslam Rauf – And I am a student studying Biology right now. And my teacher is teaching me… Evolution now – And I was wondering about the Islamic answer to ‘Evolution’ right now. If you could explain briefly – What Islam says on the topic of ‘evolution’ and creationism.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother has asked a question. Just as Dr. William Campbell is taking the liberty to answer, even I will take the liberty. No where in the Qur’an is the name of ‘Alexander’ mentioned – It says ‘Zulqarnain’… not ‘Alexander.’ If some commentator has made a mistake, it is a mistake in the commentary – The men have made the mistake – Not the word of God. Regarding the Bible, saying that…‘the world’…in Isaiah, ‘is a circle.’ No problem – It says… ‘Circle’, not spherical.
So one place Bible says… ‘Flat’- one place it says… ‘Circle.’ If you agree with both the verses, it becomes like a disk. See – Does it look like the earth? It is circle, and it is flat – This is not the earth.
Regarding Biology in the Qur’an, and regarding ‘evolution’ – two questions the brother asked. I do not know whether I can answer both or not – I do not mind.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Any one.
(Dr. Zakir) Which one? First one, or second one? – Biology? Or evolution?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Evolution will be good.
(Dr. Zakir) Are you choosing or he is choosing.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Because he had asked the question for evolution – I think it will be good.
(Dr. Zakir) Two questions – Biology first, and then evolution. If you give me 10 minutes I will answer both.
(Dr. Mohammed) Only in 5 minutes, whatever you can do.
(Dr. Zakir) Okay fine – I agree with the chairperson Mr. Samuel Naaman – I will answer on evolution. The exact answer, you can refer to my video cassette – ‘Qur’an and Modern Science.’ Regarding when you talk about evolution, you start thinking about Darwin’s theory. And Darwin went on his ship – at ‘H.M.H. Bugle’ to an island by the name of ‘calatropis’ and he saw birds pecking at niches. Based on that observation that the beaks of the birds became long and short, he propounded the natural selection. But he wrote a letter to his friend Thomas Thompton, in 19th century – He said that… ‘I do not have proof to propound my natural selection but because it helped me in classification of embryology, of rudimentary organs, I put forth this.’ Darwin’s theory is not a fact at all – It is only a theory. And I made it very clear in the beginning of my talk… ‘Qur’an can go against theories’, because theories take U-turns – But Qur’an will not go against any established fact. And in our school we are taught about Darwin’s theory, as though it is a fact .its not a fact. There is no scientific proof at all – ‘there are missing links.’ Therefore if someone has to insult his friend, his colleague, he will say… ‘If you were present at Darwin’s time, Darwin’s theory would have been proved right – insinuating, he looks like an ape. There are missing links with Darwin’s theory. And I know about the four fossils that are present – the Hominoids – the Lucy. Orthalopetians, with its guide, the Homoeructus, Naindertolman, and Cromageron – For details, refer to my videocassette. By molecular Biology, according to Hansis Cray, he said it is impossible that we can be evolved from apes, by DNA coding – it is impossible. You can refer to my videocassette – It gives the details. Some parts I have no objection. Regarding biology, Qur’an says in Surah Ambiya, Chapter 21, Verse No. 30, … Arabic…
‘We have created every living thing from water – Will you not then believe ?’
Today we know that every living creature – The basic substance… the cell contains cytoplasm, which has about 90% water. Every living creature in the world has approximately 50 to 90 % water. Imagine… in the deserts of Arabia, who could have imagined, that every thing is made of water ? Qur’an says that 14 hundred years ago. In the field of…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Time – Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Zakir) Thank you.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you very much.
(Dr. Mohammed) We would now start the questions on slips of paper. We would have this box for Dr. William Campbell – this box for Dr. Zakir Naik. We turn the boxes – their name towards themselves, so they do not see through, while you will can see. They pick up the questions, looking away from the box, and they answer it themselves – ‘Whatever they have choose, they to answer. The first question for Dr. William Campbell, and next the question for Dr. Zakir. They can pick up the questions in advance so that we won’t … do not waste time, in their reading the questions. So one – one questions you can start – and we will allow Dr. William to read for some time if he wants. There is the first question.
(Dr. William Campbell) I will read the question – but first I just want to say about… ‘Everything made of water.’ It is perfectly obvious – Every time you smash a bug – It is made of water. Every living being is made of water – But it is observable – It is not a miracle.
(Qtn… Dr. Campbell) Okay Dr. Campbell, if you cannot answer the contradictions in Genesis, regarding the creation – Do not you think that proves that the Bible is unscientific, and therefore not from God ?
(Ans… Dr. Campbell) I admit that I have some problems with this – but I also have all the fulfilled prophecies – and that is very important to me. And it says that… Jesus is the corner stone, and built on a… he is built on a foundation of the apostles, and the Prophets – and so the Prophets prophesied, and the Apostles wrote down, when God fulfilled the prophecy. I know that does not answer your question – But my faith…. is in Christ – for as my savior.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Okay, thank you – Dr. Naik.
(Qtn… Dr. Zakir) ‘Text’ and ‘translations’ are two different words, giving two different meanings in the Bible – in English, ‘a text’ or ‘a translation.’ Cannot… scientifically text and translation be proved to be the one and the same ? Did God reveal His messages upon Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, in English ? It is a very good question – Can the text and the translation be the same ? No! A ‘text’ and ‘translation’ cannot be exactly the same – Can come close to it. And according to Maulana Abdul Majid Dariabadi, he said the most difficult book in the world to translate, is the Glorious Qur’an. Because the language of the Qur’an is so eloquent, it, is so superior, so noble – And one word in Arabic, has got several meanings. Therefore to translate the Qur’an, is the most difficult – It is not the same. And if there is a mistake in the translation, it is a human handiwork – the human being who is translating – he is to blame, not Almighty God. Regarding – Was Bible revealed in English? No! – Bible was not revealed in English – It is Old Testament in Hebrew, New Testament in Greek. Though Jesus Christ peace be upon him, spoke Hebrew – But the original Manuscript that you have – it is in Greek. The Old Testament, the original Hebrew is not available – do you know that? The Hebrew translation of the Old Testament is from the Greek – So even the original Old Testament, which is in Hebrew, is not present in Hebrew. So you have a double problem – No wonder you have scribal errors, etc. But the Qur’an–Alhamdulillah, the original Arabic is maintained. It has been… Alhamdulillah scientifically – you can prove it is the same. And regarding – Were Revelations revealed to Jesus Christ peace be upon him, and to Moses peace be upon him. I said in my earlier answers as well as my talk, that we believe the Qur’an says in Surah Al-Rad, Chapter. 13, Verse 38, that Allah Subhanawataala has sent down several Revelations. By name only 4 are mentioned – The Torah the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an. The Torah is the Wahi, which was given to Moses, peace be upon him. The Zaboor is the Revelation, the Wahi which was given to David, peace be upon him. Injeel is the Revelation, Wahi which was given to Jesus, peace be upon him. And Qur’an is the last and final Revelation which was given to the last and final Messenger, Prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Time, Dr. Naik – Thank you so much.
(Dr. Zakir) But the present Bible is not the Injeel, which we believe in, which, was revealed to Jesus Christ peace be upon him.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you Sir – Dr. Campbell.
(Dr. Campbell) But the present Injeel is the one as always been. We have…. We have texts – 75 percent of the texts from 180 A.D – That is 100 years after John wrote. He was – He was alive, and wrote. You have people alive at that point, who knew – who their… grandparents believed, through John. That is good evidence, and good text – The Bible is valid history. Now the question – With the probability you presented – It is a great calculation – Thank you. But in the matter of God, it is completely inferior. God is All Powerful, and can choose who he likes.’ – Off course No matter rich or poor, or any other thing – so how then does you probability fit in? Jesus was poor – he was chosen – He said… ‘The son of man, has no where to lay his head.’ I am not sure about this – I do not see how the calculation is talking about that. Calculation was – how many people could… fulfill all those prophecies? I hope that is been helpful – Thank you.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you… Dr. Naik, go ahead – please go ahead – Thank you.
(Qtn… Dr. Zakir) To an effort to prove… in an effort to prove, the Qur’an is so heavily agreeable to modern science – what happens if modern science is wrong?… Does the Qur’an always change, to reflect the changes in science? That is a very good question – It is a very important question. And we Muslims should be very careful while being compatible with the Qur’an and modern science. Therefore I said in the beginning of my talk – I will only be speaking about those scientific facts, which have been established. And a scientific fact, which has been established – for example, the earth is spherical – It can never go wrong. Established science can never take U-turns. But unestablished science like hypothesis and theories can take U-turns. I know Muslim scholars, who have tried to prove Darwin’s theory, from the Qur’an. Nonsense! So therefore, we should not go overboard, and try and prove everything of modern science. We have to be careful to check up whether it is established, or unestablished. If it is established, Alhamdulillah, with scientific proof, the Qur’an will never go against it. If it is hypothesis, it may be right, it may be wrong. Like ‘Big Bang’ theory – It was a hypothesis earlier – Earlier it was a hypothesis. Today after solid proof about the celestial matter… according to Steven Hawkins, etc., it is a fact. So Big Bang theory, today is a fact – Yesterday if was a hypothesis – Once it becomes a fact, I use it. You know there are hypothesis saying that… ‘Human beings have been created from a single pair of genes’ – Adam and Eve. I do not use it, because science has not established. It goes along with the Qur’an. It goes along with the Qur’an, that we have been evolved from one pair Adam and Eve, peace be upon them – But I do not use it, because that is not an established fact. So therefore, while bringing a co-relation between Qur’an and science, etc., see to it that you use only those scientific facts which have been established… and not hypothesis – because Qur’an is far superior to modern science. I am not trying to prove the Qur’an to be the word of God, with the help of science – No, not at all. What I am trying to do – For us Muslims, Qur’an is the ultimate criteria – For the Atheist and for the Non Muslims maybe, science may be the ultimate criteria. I am using the criteria… the yard stick of the Atheist, and comparing with the yard stick of the Muslims – The Qur’an. I am not trying to prove the Qur’an to be the word of God, with the help of science. What I am trying to do, when I bring a compatibility, and I show the superiority Qur’an ? – That what your science has told us yesterday… Qur’an has told us 14 hundred years ago. I am trying to prove that our yard stick… the Muslim yardstick… the Qur’an, is far superior to your yard stick – The science. Therefore, you should believe in Qur’an, which is far superior – Hope that answers the question.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes, Dr. Campbell.
(Mr. Samuel Noman) This is the last.
(Dr. Mohammed) Excuse me – Last two questions for the speakers.
We will ask the audience to just bear for us, for a few minutes more We have the last question on the slip for Dr. Campbell, followed by one last question for Dr. Zakir – and we will ask you to please wait till the end.
(Qtn… Dr. William Campbell) It is the same question as the last one, really. Dr. Campbell agreed to Dr. Naik, that the errors he showed are not wrong, and that he cannot answer them. So does this mean that Dr. Campbell agrees that the Bible has errors – So it is not the word of God ?
(Ans… Dr. William Campbell) There are things in the Bible, that I cannot explain – that I do not have an answer for now. And I am willing to wait, until I see whether an answer comes. There are many places where archeological things have proved, that the Bible is true – talking about towns, and who is king, and things like that – And I think there is great proof, that the Bible is valid in good history.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Campbell.
(Qtn… Dr. Zakir) The question is… ‘Are there any more mathematical contradictions in the Bible ?’ What is this… Bible or Islam ?… Sorry. Are there any more mathematical contradictions in Islam? Are there any more? – Is it Bible or Islam? – I do not know – I will answer both. Because… ‘Is there any more ?’ – It should be Bible, because I spoke about contradictions. Anyway regarding Islam – the Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse No.82…. (Arabic)….
‘Do they not consider the Qur’an with care? – Had it been from anyone besides Allah, there would have been many contradictions.’
There is not a single. Regarding more contradictions in the Bible – five minutes will be insufficient – Even if they give me 5 days, its difficult. Any way I will just mention a few. It is mentioned in the 2nd Kings, Chapter No.8, Verse No.26, it says that… ‘Ahezia… that Ahezia, he was 22 years old, when he began to reign.’ 2nd Chronicles, Chapter No. 22, Verse No. 2, says that… ‘He was 42 years old, when he began to reign. Was he 22 years old, or was he 42 years old? – Mathematical contradiction. Further more, in 2nd Chronicles, Chapter No. 21, Verse No. 20, it says that… ‘Joaram, the father of Ahezia, he reigned at the age of 32 – and he reigned for 8 years, and he died at the age of 40. Immediately… Ahezia became the next ruler at the age of 42. Father died at the age of 40 – Immediately son takes over, who is at the age of 42. How can a son, be two years older than the father?’ Believe me even… even in Hollywood film, you will not be able to produce it.
In Hollywood film, you can produce a ‘unicorn’ which I mentioned in my talk. Unicorn… you can have Coccrodyasis, which the Bible speaks about, Concrodyasis and dragons and serpents. But in Hollywood you cannot even show a son, being two years older than the father. It cannot even be a miracle – Even in miracles; it is not possible – Impossible. In miracle, you can have a person being born of a virgin birth – but in miracle you cannot have a son being older than the father, by 2 years. Further if you read – it is mentioned in the Bible, in 2nd Samuel Chapter No 24, Verse No 9, that… ‘The people that were involved in the battlefield. It gives a list of these people, in 2nd Samuel, Chapter 24, Verse No. 9, and it says that… ‘People that took part 800 thousand of the men of Israel, took part – and 500 thousand of the men of Judah same.’ If you see other places, 1st Chronicle, Chapter 21, Verse No. 5, it says that… ‘1 million – Hundred thousand people took part in the battle field, from the men of Israel – and ten thousand four hundred and sixty men took part of Judah.’ Was it 800 thousand people who took part from the men of Israel, or was it 1 million – 100 thousand? Was it 5 lakh people of Judah that took part or 10,460? A clear-cut contradiction. Further more, it is mentioned in the Bible in 2nd Samuel, Chapter No. 6, Verse No 23, that… ‘Michael the daughter of Saul – she had no sons’ – 2nd Samuel’, Chapter 21, Verse No. 8… ‘Michael the daughter of Saul had 5 sons.’ One place it says… ‘No children, no son, no daughter’ – Other place… ‘5 sons.’ Further more if you read, it is mentioned in Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No. 1, Verse No. 16 – it says about the genealogy of Jesus Christ peace be upon him – as well as Luke Chapter No. 3, Verse No. 23, and it says that… Jesus’ father, that is Joseph – his father was Jacob’ – Mathew, Chapter 1, Verse 16. And Luke, Chapter No 3, Verse No 23… Jesus’ father… Joseph – his father was Hailey. Did Jesus’ father… Joseph, had two fathers ? What do you call a person who has got two fathers ? Or was it Hailey – or was it Jacob ? Clear-cut contradiction.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik, Thank you very much.
(Dr. Mohammed) Can we … can we have you bear with us for 2 minutes ? We have the renowned, international Islamic scholar amongst us… Dr. Jamal Badawi – and on behalf of the Islamic Research Foundation, we feel it an honour, if he would take the pleasure of inaugurating or releasing the book just written by Dr. Zakir Naik – ‘The Quran and Modern Science – Compatible or Incompatible’ Dr. Jamal Badawi to release the book, which has just recently been published and printed few days back – and being released here in Chicago, on this appropriate occasion.
(Dr. Jamal Badawi) There is no more fitting way, as a gesture of friendship, than to ask Dr. Zakir to give it to Dr. Campbell, by himself.
(Dr. Mohammed) As we have a very limited number of these copies available – so we request only the Non Muslim guests who have come here, to kindly take a complimentary copy of the book, as they leave the auditorium, if they are interested – It would be a pleasure.’ May I call upon Dr. Sabeel Ahmed, to present the vote of thanks.
(Dr. Sabeel Ahmed) Again on behalf of Islamic Circle of North America, I would really thank all of you for your patience, and all our distinguished guests over here, for giving up a very good performance for all of us. …. (Arabic)….